摘要：圖靈訪談作為媒體嘉賓，會(huì)議期間對(duì)重量級(jí)嘉賓米格爾尼科萊利斯和李杰進(jìn)行了訪談。訪談嘉賓米格爾尼科萊利斯，美國(guó)杜克大學(xué)醫(yī)學(xué)院神經(jīng)生物學(xué)教授法國(guó)科學(xué)院院士巴西科學(xué)院院士暢銷書腦機(jī)穿越作者年巴西世界杯機(jī)械戰(zhàn)甲發(fā)明者。

6月15日~6月18日，圖靈作為技術(shù)圖書出版先鋒品牌，受邀參加了第十五屆中國(guó)國(guó)際軟件和信息服務(wù)交易會(huì)（中國(guó)軟交會(huì)）。本屆中國(guó)軟交會(huì)以“新IT、新生態(tài)、新動(dòng)能”為主題，匯聚了來(lái)自全球的業(yè)界精英和代表，全面展示了IT產(chǎn)業(yè)的新技術(shù)、新思維和新模式，分享了智能化在醫(yī)療、金融、服裝等行業(yè)引起的改變，共同探討了企業(yè)“智”造之路的務(wù)實(shí)方案。
作為受邀出版機(jī)構(gòu)，圖靈為參會(huì)人員帶來(lái)了全新的“智慧閱讀”體驗(yàn)，用科技和文化元素來(lái)打通IT人的圈層文化。“圖靈訪談”作為媒體嘉賓，會(huì)議期間對(duì)重量級(jí)嘉賓米格爾·尼科萊利斯和李杰進(jìn)行了訪談。

Miguel Nicolelis（米格爾·尼科萊利斯），美國(guó)杜克大學(xué)醫(yī)學(xué)院神經(jīng)生物學(xué)教授、法國(guó)科學(xué)院院士、巴西科學(xué)院院士、暢銷書《腦機(jī)穿越》作者、2014年巴西世界杯“機(jī)械戰(zhàn)甲”發(fā)明者。

他曾被美國(guó)科普雜志《科學(xué)美國(guó)人》評(píng)為全球最具影響力的20位科學(xué)家之一，其研究被《麻省理工科技評(píng)論》評(píng)為10大最具突破性的科技創(chuàng)新之一。

決定投身“腦機(jī)接口”研究的原因是什么？

米格爾： 一開(kāi)始，我只是想研究人腦是怎么工作的。這是主要的原因。隨著技術(shù)的發(fā)展，我發(fā)現(xiàn)我們能用腦機(jī)接口來(lái)幫助患有各種疾病的病人。這給了我更大的動(dòng)力來(lái)繼續(xù)這方面的研究工作。

您做過(guò)很多非常棒的實(shí)驗(yàn)，哪一個(gè)最特別？

米格爾： 在外骨骼的幫助下，病人可以再次行走。失去雙腿的病人在世界杯開(kāi)幕式上可以再次踢足球。（這些對(duì)于我來(lái)說(shuō)，都很特別。）我和他們每天都呆在一起，生活了8個(gè)月。站起來(lái)行走的那一刻對(duì)于他們每一個(gè)人來(lái)說(shuō)，都是一個(gè)巨大的勝利，值得慶祝！

當(dāng)Juliano在巴西世界杯開(kāi)幕式上踢開(kāi)一腳的時(shí)候，我就站在他身后的3米遠(yuǎn)。我跑向他，一起慶祝。這一刻值得所有人流淚。

“腦機(jī)接口”研究的最終目標(biāo)是什么？

米格爾： 在醫(yī)療方面，目標(biāo)是恢復(fù)病人失去的功能。其他方面的應(yīng)用有遠(yuǎn)程控制機(jī)器人，把機(jī)器人派到對(duì)于人類來(lái)說(shuō)太小、太遠(yuǎn)或是太危險(xiǎn)的地方。如果能用人類大腦直接控制這些機(jī)器人，我們就能獲得更多的靈活性和更好的移動(dòng)性。

另一件事是，多人通過(guò)“大腦網(wǎng)”進(jìn)行遠(yuǎn)程協(xié)作。

（圖靈出版的《信息簡(jiǎn)史》《漫談人工智能》受到“中國(guó)軟交會(huì)”嘉賓的喜愛(ài)）

對(duì)下一代計(jì)算設(shè)備的展望是怎樣的？對(duì)于人類來(lái)說(shuō)，實(shí)現(xiàn)大腦控制計(jì)算程序的主要挑戰(zhàn)是什么？

米格爾： 實(shí)際上，我認(rèn)為未來(lái)將會(huì)看到大腦和計(jì)算機(jī)之間的連接，從而開(kāi)發(fā)出新的計(jì)算設(shè)備。這是一場(chǎng)全面的革命，因?yàn)槲覀兊拇竽X將會(huì)跟這些設(shè)備直接相連。我們不再需要打字，只通過(guò)思考就能和電腦互動(dòng)。

最大的挑戰(zhàn)是能夠可靠地提取信號(hào)，并且計(jì)算機(jī)能夠與大腦交互。這樣我們可以得到一個(gè)非常高效的接口用于日常工作，比如處理手機(jī)、筆記本電腦和汽車。一旦完善了這個(gè)交互，我們將看到腦機(jī)接口對(duì)整個(gè)技術(shù)的巨大影響。

我們是否還需要穿戴一些東西來(lái)讓大腦連接到數(shù)字應(yīng)用？

米格爾： 是的，我們總是需要一些傳感器來(lái)捕捉大腦的活動(dòng)。沒(méi)有這些傳感器，就無(wú)法傳輸大腦的電信號(hào)。傳感器要能夠盡可能多地從大腦中獲取信息，完善與數(shù)字平臺(tái)交互的能力。對(duì)于動(dòng)物來(lái)說(shuō)，接口會(huì)植入大腦。但是對(duì)于人類來(lái)說(shuō)，我們會(huì)研究一種類似帽子的東西。因?yàn)椴粫?huì)植入任何東西，所以對(duì)人類來(lái)說(shuō)不會(huì)有危險(xiǎn)。

這些接口是否有助于治療基因缺陷引起的疾??？

米格爾： 不，這并不針對(duì)基因缺失引起的疾病。你必須意識(shí)到世界上有近10億的人患有腦功能紊亂的疾病。如果我們把所有患有大腦功能紊亂的人放在一起，這幾乎就是一個(gè)中國(guó)的人口。

大多數(shù)患有腦功能障礙的病人與基因方面并沒(méi)有關(guān)系。它們大部分來(lái)自脊髓損傷、帕金森和阿爾茨海默病癥。我們需要對(duì)這將近10億的病人進(jìn)行治療，我認(rèn)為這項(xiàng)技術(shù)會(huì)有所幫助。

您對(duì)“不可能”的理解是什么？

米格爾： 當(dāng)我還是個(gè)孩子的時(shí)候，祖母告訴我，“不可能的事就是還沒(méi)有人花費(fèi)足夠的時(shí)間去做的可能的事”。我十分相信這一點(diǎn)。我的祖母是一個(gè)很有智慧的女人。我認(rèn)為成為一名科學(xué)家與她對(duì)我的影響有著很大的關(guān)系。她教會(huì)了我如何思考大事情。

隨著研究發(fā)展，你的新發(fā)現(xiàn)是什么？

米格爾： 事實(shí)上，我正在寫一本新書，因?yàn)橛泻芏嘈碌南敕ǔ霈F(xiàn)。我在書中提到了一點(diǎn)，而且我認(rèn)為現(xiàn)在很有必要講的一點(diǎn)是，有越來(lái)越多的證據(jù)表明我們的大腦遠(yuǎn)比計(jì)算機(jī)優(yōu)越。人工智能不會(huì)征服人類的大腦。這就是我決定寫一本新書的原因。

What reasons are there making you dedicate yourself to brain-machine interfaces?

First, I want to investigate how the brain works. That"s the main reason. As technology develops, I realize that we could use that to treat patients suffering from various diseases. It gives extra motivation to continue this approach.

You"ve done lots of fantastic experiments. Which one do you think is most special?

The patient with exoskeleton could walk again and the patient who has lost legs could kick again on the opening ceremony of world cup. I lived with these patients every day for 8 months. The moment they were up and walk is a big victory and celebration for each one of them. That"s the most profound thing I have done, I think.

When Juliano kicked the ball on the ceremony, I was three meters behind him. After that kicking, I run to him for celebration. At that time, I almost cried because it"s like a miracle.

What"s the ultimate goal for brain-machine interfaces?

On the medical front, the goal is to restore functions to patients who have lost them. There will be other applications in controlling robots in places where it"s too small, too far or too dangerous. If we can control robots directly with our brain, we could gain more flexibility and mobility.

The other thing is that multiple people could collaborate at distance through brain net.

What"s your outlook for next generation computational devices? What"s the main challenge for humans to realize brain control of computational Apps?

I actually think that the future will see the links between brains and computers to develop new computational devices. It"s a total revolution in the way we talk about computers, because our brain is going to be directly linked to these devices. We don"t need to type anymore, if we can basically interact with computers just by thinking.

The biggest challenge is to be able to extract signals reliably and that computers are able to interact with the brain. So we get a very efficient interface that can be used for routine tasks, like dealing with laptops, cars and cellphones. Once we perfect this link, we"ll see tremendous impacts on technology.

Do we still need some kind of things to wear so as to connect brains to digital Apps?

Yes, we always need some sensors to capture brain activities. Without that, we couldn"t transmit the electrical signals from our brains. We really need to develop the sensors to the point that we could get as much as possible from the brain to interact with digital platforms.

For animals, we implant. For human beings, what we"re developing is something like a cap. You don"t need to implant anything. That"s the reason why it"s not dangerous.

Would the interfaces be helpful for diseases resulted from genetic defects?

No, that"s not for genetic diseases. You have to realize that there"re almost one billion people in the world with brain disorder. If we put all the brain-disordered people together, it"s almost one China of patients.

Most of the patients with brain disorder have nothing to do with genetic reasons. They come from lesions of spinal cord, Parkinson and Alzheimer"s disease. So we need treatments for these almost one billion people. I think the technology will help.

What"s your understanding of "impossibility"?

My grandmother told me when I was a kid that “the impossible is just the possible that nobody put time enough to make”. I believe in that. She was a very intellectual woman. I think to become a scientist has strong relationships with her influences on me. She taught me how to think big things.

As your research moves on, what"s your new finding?

In fact, I"m finishing a new book, because there are so many new ideas coming out. One thing I"ve talked a little bit in the book and I think it"s very important to say now is that there is more and more evident showing our brains are far superior than computers. AI will not overcome the human brain. That"s the reason why I decide to write a new book.